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The way of Democracy
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Gozer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 08:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

The definition of "all the basic human rights" isn't even agreed upon.
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Locutus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 08:51    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulAtreides wrote:
Your fanatical loyalty to the oppressive Chinese government...


Let me remind you that WE are both loyal to our IDEAS and MORALS, as well as governments who uphold them. You seem to be offended at anything that goes aganist your principles, which makes your verbal assaults seem to be the result of fanaticism also.

I believe your criticism of my government stems from your education. I came to the United States at the age of 8, and I was also educated in the United States. I once considered my own government a harsh and tyrannical overlord. However, during my visits back home, I never witnessed any atrocities of the government. In fact, I liked life back home better than in the US. This puzzled me as to why others would condemn us.

My support of my government came not from childhood experience, because much of my early years were spent in Singapore. My support, strangely, came from my education in the United States also. However that is a long story for another day and another time.
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Liam
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 09:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is ok, to discuss about your countries and the way, they're leaded. I know, that it is a hot topic, but please try to stay cool. It's no good behaviour to call somebody a "little Nazi".
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Pokel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 09:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your fanatical loyalty to the oppressive Chinese government...


Plesae, think about what you said...


Quote:
In contrast, they point out many valid ways in which our western democratic system is a joke.


Im grown up in a democratic "country" and my experience: It IS a joke. I "like" the way it is working, because I would never bever able to find a better solution, but I hate the way it is taught to the people.

You are free? Just look in your Laws, you will see, you are not. A State CANNOT let the people be free.

You have a free mind? Yes, but dont tell about if it is "political incorrect". A state WILL NEVER allow the people to rise hate against it.

Political education? Yes, but its just another word for Propaganda...

Elections? Yes, but (in Germany) there are many forbidden partys. Damn why?

I heard a story about an African country (dont remember which one), which is a wonderful example why: They had election times and the people voted an autocrat party. The democratic peoples started a civil war aginst their new government with the help of "western" countrys and won. they wiped out many of the party members and continued to be a wonderful "democracy". Think about it...


In my opinion a straight communist system or a straight democratic system will never work. Both are just a dream about a perfect world we will never see.
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Locutus
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pokel wrote:
You have a free mind? Yes, but dont tell about if it is "political incorrect". A state WILL NEVER allow the people to rise hate against it.

Political education? Yes, but its just another word for Propaganda...


From my experiences across three different countries and political systems, I totally agree with this. In one state I have found things which would be considered propaganda in another, and vice versa. They're all different ways of producing loyalty in the citizens.
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doriniva
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pokel wrote:

In my opinion a straight communist system or a straight democratic system will never work. Both are just a dream about a perfect world we will never see.


Sorry because I didn't read all about this topic so I would like before continuing to hear the definition of the communist system as well as for democratic system.
Anyway, the democratic system is far from dreaming to be perfect. Just has the way for a better control in elections and easy way to change the ruler. In comunist systems on the other hand they are more like monarchies. Look how often the rulers are changed... And of course if you acceded in the elite (administrative or opresive forces) some are very "liked life"...
We can talk a lot more after the definitions.
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lachieboy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 15:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pokel wrote:
Elections? Yes, but (in Germany) there are many forbidden partys. Damn why?


Well, That was a big thing in Australia during the cold war when our Prime Minister tried to outlaw the Communist Party of Australia, but the law was repeled in the High Court of Australia.
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Pokel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 06:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Communism comes from the latin word "communis", which mean sth. like "together". All people are equal in rights and all possesions of the country belongs to all people of the country. There is no state in the world following this exactly.

Democracy comes from the greek language and means sth like the people are ruling the country, but if you educate them to the political interests of the state, who does really rule the country? And if you take away the rights I mentioned before, then you will see, that the people are not really ruling the country.
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alphabravo
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Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 827
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Pokel"]Communism comes from the latin word "communis", which mean sth. like "together". All people are equal in rights and all possesions of the country belongs to all people of the country. There is no state in the world following this exactly.[quote] and in the forseeable future, this is almost impossible...

I think George Orwell summarizes the realities of communism well with the quotation
Quote:
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"


and communis is something like the genetive of community, so of the community
i dont know for sure - but it's certainly stemmed from the word community
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Pokel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 14:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

alphabravo wrote:
and communis is something like the genetive of community, so of the community
i dont know for sure - but it's certainly stemmed from the word community


Yes, but I think community comes also from the latin word communis. Never forget, that english is a mixture from many languages, mostly german and frensh.


And some words from the great Pokel:

Quote:
n a democracy the people can choice their government, but the government tell them waht to chose.
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PaulAtreides
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 15:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, English owes more to Latin than to French
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Xilento
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 17:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulAtreides wrote:
no, English owes more to Latin than to French


From the French part, mostly Norman French-

Actuly its interesting if you look at some of the English words that we have 2 of for the same thing (Norman F., and 'Older English')

Example:

Norman French (presumed, more 'elequent'-(used/brought by Aristocracy)):------------Prior, English:
-----Forest-----Woods-----
-----Dine-----Eat-----
-----Desire-----Want-----
-----Close-----Shut
-----Reply-----Answer
-----Oder-----Smell
-----Annual-----Yearly
-----Demand-----Ask
-----Chamber-----Room
-----Power-----Might
-----Ire-----Anger

Etc

Lol, a bit off topic, but I thought Id mention it Wink
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NobleSteve
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 17:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

French Italian and English all have deep seaded roots in latin... but have varied greatly over the years with influences from the germanic tribes and those lovely people from the scandinavian regions who popped in from time to time for an odd pillage and eventually to settle.

But back to main point, to be fair true communism has never been achieved... anywhere.. ever! I studied a fair amount about it while learning about Russia and Europe at the turn of the century... and Karl Marx saw the "dictatorship of the proleteriate" which is the state ruling the people and enforcing communism as simply a neccessary step to ensure the counties survival and adaptation to the new system. He said the state would eventually shrink either to nothing or simply a diplomatic role and trading tool for the nations needs with the non communist countries.... but as he saw communism as the ideal and natural evolution for governments and countries this too would ultimatly disappear. He also predicted only truly industialised nations would succed with communism, and that nations in the west would be the first to go... places like Russia and Asia both Greater and Minor would be last to go...

So can anyone truly say China is communist... nope... it never made it, you can call it something else... Mao's blueprint and little red book started it... but have yet to finish it... and the Chinese people have for thousands of yours now relied on a strong central leadership.. i cant see that melting away as Marx planned anytime soon. But is that all bad? China is a powerhouse for industry and economy... hopefully once the labour inequality between city workers and farmers is better and the population is stabilised with better more orthadox (you all know i mean Western) family planning China will indeed been seen as a model of how shear determination and will can haul a country up from the fields and into the world stage as a more equal partner.

And for any Americans out there who are fuming at what ive said.. im British and proud... i like democracy just fine, but have learnt that while plenty have tried none have got communism yet in this world... but if they did, no state = basically no military.... think about it... then all you'd have to fear is what you do not understand and not a lovely couple of ICBM's facing you with surprisingly heavy tips that tend to be volitile when too many spare neutrons are about.

And if any Chinese disagree then great! I love a discussion.. but call it what you like... you are not true communists.. but well done for making something work out of a idea that was pretty flawed lets face it... unless everone did the same thing at once another nation would destroy the communist due to its lack of authority and ease of intergration.

There is more on the subject but ive got the jist of it i think
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Locutus
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 19:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

NobleSteve wrote:
...you are not true communists...


No country that I know of has ever been a true communism. Or a true democracy for that matter.

The way I want it to work out is that the government controls and regulates the economics and technological fields. If you have an oligarchy with a ruling council, the policies will not be subject to a change in funding due to lack of public support (NASA, for example) and the change in electing a new governing body.

I would trust the judgement of a specialized professional over the opinions of a hundred people, and likewise, I would trust the rule of a group of well-informed commisioners over the rule of a few million apathetic and virtually uninformed people (of course, we have a few who stand out, like the people I see playing Kosmor). Should a council member be too rash, too complacent, or too stupid in general, they kick him out.
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PaulAtreides
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 20:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fear that such a view demands an overly optimistic appraisal of human nature.

Democracy is a ridiculous form of government, as I am sure you all agree. Democracy is just a name for the tyrrany of the majority which is free to exploit the monorities. America is no democracy. We are a Republic, with a Constitution that limits the power of the majority and the power of each branch of government. This balance of power has worked well for us while our population was moral, educated, and well, basically, when it was predominantly Christian.

Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is an occessionally inaccurate but generally useful classic analysis of how Christianity gave rise to Capitalism. You could classify it as sociology of religion, but I studied it in a political science class.

If you lack an intelligent and Christian population, then I doubt whether democratic or republican government is the best. It probably still is because of the impossibility of guaranteeing that a small group of rulers will be benificent or intelligent.
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