Kosmor Forum Index
 Search Imprint      SearchSearch     Log inLog in 
 Search Legal      MemberlistMemberlist     ProfileProfile   

Victory!!!!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kosmor Forum Index -> Kosmor Talk
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Nikoy
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 13:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bucan proved to be:
1. Dangerous enemy,
2. Recovering faster than expected,
3. Never giving up - strikes again and again,
4. Disliking peace or negotiations.

Then why he should not be ripped? This is the only way for the more peaceful part of the Galaxy to get rid of him at least for a while!

In my opinion he has to be left to regrow his Housemembers by himself in peace! Green!
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 13:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I'm just saying, that Sandal would be nothing better if he ripps Bucan.
It's like nuclear bombarding to destroy Russia and the States to avoid a nuclear war. Or like preventing a second Hitler by conquering the world.
Ripping would be a good solution to stop Bucan for a while, but the moral behind it is more bad than Bucan could ever be.

And why do you think Bucan is as bad as you see him? He (at that time somtehing about rank 15) just defended himself against an alliance of 5 top-ten-houses in a very effective way. And the war gets more and more on, you never gave him a real chance. Although Agnar offered officially something like a NAT, but he could have never accepted, where on the other side was Sandal, who never had other aims than destroying Bucan, also early in the history when Bucan did not even think about attacking you.
Back to top
Gozer
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 15:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
No I'm just saying, that Sandal would be nothing better if he ripps Bucan.
It's like nuclear bombarding to destroy Russia and the States to avoid a nuclear war. Or like preventing a second Hitler by conquering the world.
Ripping would be a good solution to stop Bucan for a while, but the moral behind it is more bad than Bucan could ever be.


No one is talking about conquering the world, unless you consider Bucan to be the world. If an opponent will not accept a reasonable peace, they are still your enemy. To treat them otherwise is foolish.

There is a lot of history of which I'm not aware, but you've said quite a bit about your side's concept of war.

Now, I believe to are playing for sympathy and stalling for time, until an opportunity to attack presents itself.
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 15:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gozer wrote:
No one is talking about conquering the world, unless you consider Bucan to be the world. If an opponent will not accept a reasonable peace, they are still your enemy. To treat them otherwise is foolish.

My parable with the world was just meant to exemplify.

If an opponent attacks you, you have to destroy his fleet and/or integrate him. Both happened with Bucan.
So why should you let him integrate several times together with an ally? That's not fair and he did it neiter without any serious reason. Bucan did not show any resistance since his integration, so there is no cause to integrate him a second time... only to get his planets??
Back to top
lachieboy
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 15:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
Bucan did not show any resistance since his integration, so there is no cause to integrate him a second time... only to get his planets??


Bucan has shown no interest in peace. If we are not at peace then we are at war. Going back to your Hitler metaphor, would you have accepted peace with him while he still controlled Germany? Of course not! He, like Bucan, had no interest in peace and, like Bucan, would just use the time he had to prepare for war (eg: Russians)
Back to top
APOcalypse
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 16:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ripping a player down is a poor way of playing a game - no matter who will do it or did it. Rolling Eyes
Back to top
Gozer
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 00:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apophis wrote:
Ripping a player down is a poor way of playing a game - no matter who will do it or did it. Rolling Eyes


And that is the exact attitude on which some are counting. If a player is integrated, yet still acts in a hostile manner and refuses any talk of peace, your options for dealing with them are limited. You either let them rebuild and attack, or you remove their ability to threaten you. If Bucan accepts peace, there should be no need for continued hostilities.

You may note that michimike's rhetoric consists of telling how they are going to destroy their enemies, followed by complaining about how their enemies won't stop attacking. If you fight with someone, get knocked down, then start telling them how you're going to crush them when you get up, they probably aren't going to let you get back up.
Back to top
Gozer
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 00:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
If an opponent attacks you, you have to destroy his fleet and/or integrate him. Both happened with Bucan.


Bucan's fleet was destroyed? There are several posts in this thread where you say it wasn't. Which is it?
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 05:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

lachieboy wrote:
Bucan has shown no interest in peace. If we are not at peace then we are at war. Going back to your Hitler metaphor, would you have accepted peace with him while he still controlled Germany? Of course not! He, like Bucan, had no interest in peace and, like Bucan, would just use the time he had to prepare for war (eg: Russians)

Do you know that you offered peace to him? Did you ask Sandal what he told him?
Would you accept peace, when you are conquered, your main fleet is destroyed and the conquerer writes to you "hey, we can have peace, if you give me all your planets and components for the ships I lost in the fight with you"?
And that's what Sandal did! HE won and demanded a reparation of his fleet. Bucan would never have done this and the "offer" is unaccaptable... and maybe impossible, because Sandal had lost a lot of ships!

Gozer wrote:
Bucan's fleet was destroyed? There are several posts in this thread where you say it wasn't. Which is it?

Yes, his main fleet was destroyed. I never said it was not, you can read it in the GN (not the day before the integration, but two! that was what I disclaimed first).
And of course he has some ships left. Enough to integrate someone like you, Gozer, but not enough to resist Sandal and Briac together.
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 05:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gozer wrote:
Apophis wrote:
Ripping a player down is a poor way of playing a game - no matter who will do it or did it. Rolling Eyes


And that is the exact attitude on which some are counting. If a player is integrated, yet still acts in a hostile manner and refuses any talk of peace, your options for dealing with them are limited. You either let them rebuild and attack, or you remove their ability to threaten you. If Bucan accepts peace, there should be no need for continued hostilities.

You may note that michimike's rhetoric consists of telling how they are going to destroy their enemies, followed by complaining about how their enemies won't stop attacking. If you fight with someone, get knocked down, then start telling them how you're going to crush them when you get up, they probably aren't going to let you get back up.

Gozer, if there is no offer for peace, you can't accept it. Why do you talk so loudly, when you don't know facts? You rally behind Sandal without knowing him and his real offers? HE is the unscrupulous thug.
Back to top
Gozer
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 06:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
Gozer wrote:
Bucan's fleet was destroyed? There are several posts in this thread where you say it wasn't. Which is it?

Yes, his main fleet was destroyed. I never said it was not, you can read it in the GN (not the day before the integration, but two! that was what I disclaimed first).
And of course he has some ships left. Enough to integrate someone like you, Gozer, but not enough to resist Sandal and Briac together.


You said nothing of "main fleet", just fleet. I believe Bucan has enough ships to integrate me, but you also said that about Abdul, which I know to be false. Even here, you alternately threaten and complain. Make up your mind.
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 06:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL do you read my posts or just look for some words in it? I never said that Abdul has a fleet now, which would be strong enought to integrate you Laughing
And fleet: yes, but the fleet on your warplanet never consists of all ships in your empire! Rolling Eyes
Back to top
One-of-Many
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 07:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many talk about morals, but I shall talk about pragmatism. The question of what Sandal should do, and what others should do is really a question of what Sandal values most. Also, I will be making minor comparisons to the Treaty of Versailles, this is purely academic and I hope that it offends no one.

The solution is described by michimike. The victor demands reparations with a goal of removing the vanquished as an immediate threat, as well as limitations of military power. The former deals with the short term, the latter with long-term security. However, if one is present without the other, several consequences emerge. These terms are similar to the Treaty of Versailles (and that of post-WWII too, although this is less well known).

Firstly, if one only has the former, Bucan, his allies, and his sympathisers will all thirst for revenge. The difference is that they will be able to wait patiently for the moment where they can slake it with the blood of their enemies. This solution does not solve the problem of hostility; they will rebuild their forces for another round of combat. This was what happened historically in Europe, as measures were ineffective in preventing the rearmament of Germany (though other factors were also involved).

Secondly, if one only has the latter, the victor lacks the power to enforce it. Bucan may be able to rebuild and rearm much faster than Sandal, and then their roles will be reversed; this obviously is not to Sandalís favour.

Lastly, one needs both to ensure future security. The reduction of present and the limitation of future capabilities will prevent the defeated from becoming a threat again.
In order to do so effectively, one must be prepared to completely and utterly remove Bucan from the landscape of Kosmor. The only possible cost incurred to the victor is the loss of his reputation.

Thus, the pragmatist in this case values security above abstractions of honour and righteousness; this is the utilitarian approach. He made a choice and paid the consequences, and perhaps it was a good choice indeed.

Edit: I am just presenting the reasons that Sandal might have; these do not reflect my sentiments or anyone in my house. From it we can see that if Sandal is considered as unjust, he is doing it for reasons other than the fufillment of such an imposed role.


Last edited by One-of-Many on Wed May 31, 2006 01:24; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
Gozer
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 07:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
LOL do you read my posts or just look for some words in it? I never said that Abdul has a fleet now, which would be strong enought to integrate you Laughing

Here's what you wrote in RPG:
Quote:
I'm sure that as soon as Agnar is far enough away, he could easily integrate all of you to get his planets back soon. And I'm sure Agnar won't guard Abdul forever.

The implication there is clear and not based in fact. Even "soon" was not possible, without the intervention of an ally, based on his situation.

michimike wrote:
And fleet: yes, but the fleet on your warplanet never consists of all ships in your empire! Rolling Eyes

My point is that in one message you talk about how strong Bucan still is, then talk as if he's no longer a threat.

Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but that's how it sounds.
Back to top
michimike
Guest





PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:24    Post subject: Reply with quote

One-of-Many wrote:
Firstly, if one only has the former, Bucan, his allies, and his sympathisers will all thirst for revenge.

Why should the sympathisers thirst for revenge too? I'm only fighting with words for justice for Bucan.

How can you expect of you to characterise Bucan? You don't know him. And you don't know Sandal either. It's an unlucky happening in the past, that the roles are now like they are. Bucan never had a chance to show you his good heart. You only support Sandal because your house is allied with Sandal. Why do you think he is better? Maybe he is also a threat as big as Bucan. Or bigger. Or do you think he is too impotent to be as dangerous as Bucan? Or do you plan to kill Sandal AND Bucan shortly after they have shot down all their ships?

Why do you want to ripp off Bucan so often that he leaves the game? Do you think this is asolution? Especially players like Bucan we should keep. They are Kosmor's existence! They make the game interesting.

Yes of course, that's an efficient solution for your problems. But only if you are really bad and nefarious players. You have to ripp him, because you know you threated him and badmouthed him so much, that you fear revenge. But why do you try to offer him a real chance of peace? Hmm that's difficult, because than you would have to ripp off Sandal or let him be ripped off by Bucan... there is no chance for peace, Sandal would never accept a peace where he will not be the "winner".
So the problem is not Bucan, the problem is Sandal.

I risk to argue, that I know them both better than you.

And I know Bucan is clever enought to fight Sandal without any help - my words are not important for his success, I only want to justify the situation and to build something like "Bucan's side" - a counterbalance in this unbalanced discussion.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kosmor Forum Index -> Kosmor Talk All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group