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Combat System/2.0 Parameters
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Black-Skull
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:25    Post subject: Reply with quote

Öhm i think we must separate the "Carrier"-idea in two possible lines of development :

* Should the carrier are a ship, which jump how a Goliath from planet to planet, but can't attack alone a enemy planet ?

* or should the carrier-object work how a WP, which are able to attack a enemy planet (but need ships to are victourious) ?

I think we should answer this Question. Very Happy
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Locutus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:06    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the carrier should be like a regular ship (can't attack planets), but can move into open space (like a WP).

There should also be a limit on the power of these things. For example, you can only carry a "weight limit" of ships, which limits the amount of capital ships you can place on the carrier. Also, capital ships do not need to be transported in between planets much, so that should not be too much of a problem.


As for the original ideas posted by Maelstroem, I believe that we should have an entirely new system of combat with those parameters. Weapons having area of effect, and equipment taking damage would be an interesting new development.

One idea that I had was to create a 2D battlefield system, in which you can place your ships in "battle formations," and having user-configured AI systems to run battles. These battles would involve physical locations of ships, and range/AoE issues like an RTS. This may not be currently feasible, but I hope to see something like it in the future.
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Ancient
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would be nice too have a ship of some sort better suited for defence for protecting planets with in a 200 LY range of your hp
Would be able to transport to one of your own planets with in a 200 ly range but only from your home planet the whole ship lasers topedos shields the complete set up of the ship could be transported as you would parts etc but only from your hp and a 150 LY or 200 LY range.
The ship could have D6 60 ly drives which could help expand the planet protection range.
But shields, torpedos, lasers, the same as the lev H11.
How that would effect attacking and use on your wp of this ship have not thought about yet.
Was just a quick thought as I see there is not alot of ways to defend planets near your hp when your wp is a long way aways from that area.
Of course I am looking at this as a newer smaller player not as the long term players that have loads of planets and loads of credits and resources stocked up.
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 13:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of today's mission role and implementation of the carrier
as a starting point. A modern day nuclear aircraft carrier is a
floating city, almost self-sufficient, equipped with 2 to 3 layers of
cutting edge anti-aircraft defense systems, and around 7 or 8
squadrons of aircraft.

The mission:

- To provide a credible, sustainable, independent forward
presence and conventional deterrence in peacetime,

- To operate as the cornerstone of joint/allied maritime
expeditionary forces in times of crisis, and

- To operate and support aircraft attacks on enemies, protect
friendly forces and engage in sustained independent operations
in war.

As far as I'm concerned, the specs/capabilities of the Levi are
implausible in the first place. No advanced technical
civilisation would utilise such a vessel in so impractible a
way. Except during jump, the only way it could possibly keep up
with it's "host" WP (since it only has D4 engines), is to be
either docked, or tethered in some way. Logically, the Levi
should be used primarily as a fixed emplacement for sector or
planetary defense. After all, it's really a starbase/deathstar,
not a ship. It should be barely capable of movement at all, but
it should be capable of independent movement (as the WP is),
only at a painfully slow rate (say 10LY/turn?), and be classified as
a friendly "planet" for the purposes of fleet resupply/range extension.
It should also have some restricted jump capability. I know I'm going
to hear alot of protest, but the WP shouldn't be capable of 60 LY/turn
either, but should require a jump drive.

Here's my proposal for the Carrier using existing Kosmor technology:

Hull: H10(c)
Hull Points: 1600
Drives: 10 (D12)
Shields: 8 (S12)
Lasers: 40 (L8 )
Torpedoes: N/A
Fighter Bays: 12 (@10/bay)
Probe Bays: 10 (@10/bay)
Attack Range: By squadron only
Defense Range: By squadron type and immediate area using L8's
Radar Range: 20
Upkeep: 75000cr/turn

Necessary intermediate Inputs


Description Amount
Engine control system(m1) 140
Radar dish(m2) 100
Sensor array(m3) 80
Life support system(m5) 50
Android(m6) 30
Gravity generator(m7) 20
Optium fibre(o1) 200
Optical interface(o2) 110
Communications module(o3) 60
Navigation processor(o5) 40
Combat system(o6) 30
Parallel optical computer(o7) 30
Positron field processor(o8 ) 15
Titanium plates(t1) 400
Hull modules(t3) 140
Titanium reinforcement(t4) 60
Titanium hull armour(t5) 35
Bridge command(t6) 30
Titanium HIP alloy(t8 ) 25
Energium cluster(e1) 140
Crystal transformer(e2) 75
Energy state modulator(e3) 55
Energium inverter(e4) 30
Credits 65000

Bay operation is simulated by applying some of the same attributes of
the WP to the Carrier, allowing it to host a limited fleet of H4 and below.
The Carrier should not be an "attack" vessel, and therefore should be
limited to defensive armaments only. It relies on it's airwing for
aggression.
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 13:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention, in regard to the Levi, since it states clearly in it's description that it has hangar bays, that it should be able to host (at least) squadrons of H4 & smaller. Smile
I would suggest no changes to it's armament though, as it should retain the ability to defend against attacks by capital & super-capital ships.
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michimike
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 15:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the H12-carrier should consist of a lot of A12 and it should be able to move in a range of for example 150 LY. It can act like a normal ship (jump from planet to planet and can attack warplanets), but as it is a carrier it should be able to transport other ships, which are automatically involved in battles, the H12 is involved in. BUT you can only put ships up to size H6 onto H12 carriers, as he has only slots for fighters (but an undefined amount of course like on wps).

To let the H12 fly into open space would be "to much". One sense of the limit of one warplanet is, that you need a "team" of more players = warplanets for faster and better fighting Wink
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Shadowmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 16:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

no offence to Lordling, but your idea of a carrier, would be pointless. being a carrier, 22 support craft isnt going to do squat against someone with alot of ships. empty wp and planets maybe. you would have to be able to put more ships than that on their, and have the best defensive capabilities.
aircraft carriers are intended for covering fleets with their aircraft, and for attack and defence.

and limiting th carrier to you wp! come'on what would be the point of that! carriers should be able to move indi. but slowly as was sugested. 30ly would be better.

the carrier shouldnt have much attack capabilities, cause that's not its intent, the aircraft in the carrier are its attackers.

i think, for a good carrier ship(s) to be designed and implemented,
plenty of time and thought should be put into the design concept and idea of the carrier.
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michimike
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 19:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would really not support the idea of getting a new weaker warplanet by only building a ship... It should be a fast way of transporting small ships, but it should not be able to go through empty space or to conquer enemy planets.
Weapon-slots, I thought about 20 lasers, 20 torpedos and 20 shields. But 20 drives. And the possibility to "subordinate" probes, fighters and frigates (H1-H6). Range could be dealt with < drive-tech-lvl*15 >
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 20:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galadrel wrote:
no offence to Lordling, but your idea of a carrier, would be pointless. being a carrier, 22 support craft isnt going to do squat against someone with alot of ships. empty wp and planets maybe. you would have to be able to put more ships than that on their, and have the best defensive capabilities.
aircraft carriers are intended for covering fleets with their aircraft, and for attack and defence.

and limiting th carrier to you wp! come'on what would be the point of that! carriers should be able to move indi. but slowly as was sugested. 30ly would be better.

the carrier shouldnt have much attack capabilities, cause that's not its intent, the aircraft in the carrier are its attackers.

i think, for a good carrier ship(s) to be designed and implemented,
plenty of time and thought should be put into the design concept and idea of the carrier.


No offence taken, BUT:

I don't think you are reading any of what I posted correctly. Look again: 12 Fighter Bays @10/Bay = 120, not 12; 10 Probe Bays @10/Bay = 100 Probes, not 10.

I was making a comparison between the current H11 and using the H10 as the base hull for the Carrier, as well as making some suggestions regarding the H11 (not the Carrier).

I even stressed independent twice, to make the point. but somehow you got the opposite?

I also stressed no attack ability other than it's fighter wing.

It looks like we only differ on movement rate, and it would be useless if it only moved 30 LY/turn.
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

michimike wrote:
I think the H12-carrier should consist of a lot of A12 and it should be able to move in a range of for example 150 LY. It can act like a normal ship (jump from planet to planet and can attack warplanets), but as it is a carrier it should be able to transport other ships, which are automatically involved in battles, the H12 is involved in. BUT you can only put ships up to size H6 onto H12 carriers, as he has only slots for fighters (but an undefined amount of course like on wps).


I definitely do not agree with unlimited fighters/interceptors/bombers onboard the Carrier. Also, it might be OK to temprarily "dock" H5's & H6's, but not host them as part of it's airwing. That, as you said below, is too much. Wink

michimike wrote:
To let the H12 fly into open space would be "to much". One sense of the limit of one warplanet is, that you need a "team" of more players = warplanets for faster and better fighting Wink


Why? It is only a force projection tool. It can't directly attack anything, or conquer a planet, and can only threaten a WP by use of it's squadrons (which are already quite limited in their range). It could only hope to threaten a weakly defended WP at best. It is not suited to replace the WP in any way, so what's the problem?
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Carboneater
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 21:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Lordling: when you talk about fighters in your fighter bay, do you mean H1 to H4? or what is Fighter-class ship for you? Otherwise, I like your idea.

@ Michimike: I also like your idea of "teaming" to travel in open space. but would a real big player be able to team some of its own H12 in order to gain the same effects?

---

Also, i think it would be great if we could team with allied houses. It would be great because then we would get fights with many players in it. A new page in the Hierarchy tab where all the diplomatic evolution of the house is consigned would help in it. There, the alliances, NATs and wars are shown. we would even have possibility to state the conditions of the alliance or NATs.
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 23:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

carboneater wrote:
@Lordling: when you talk about fighters in your fighter bay, do you mean H1 to H4? or what is Fighter-class ship for you? Otherwise, I like your idea.


I consider the fighter class to be H3's and H4's; I recommended separate handling bays for H1's. I also hope to see something like an H4(B) Bomber hull someday. I didn't really consider H2's, but some accomodation could be made. Even the number of bays is open for debate, but I was trying to keep it realistic. These are, after all, only suggestions. As a matter of fact, after considering how inflated the fleets are already in Kosmor, the number of bays would probably need to be nearly doubled to give the Carrier any teeth at all.
Smile

carboneater wrote:
Also, i think it would be great if we could team with allied houses. It would be great because then we would get fights with many players in it. A new page in the Hierarchy tab where all the diplomatic evolution of the house is consigned would help in it. There, the alliances, NATs and wars are shown. we would even have possibility to state the conditions of the alliance or NATs.


This is an interesting idea, although it might be difficult to code for. It could work with my idea in this post regarding diplomacy screens.
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Shadowmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 07:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like this and agree with it.

[quote="carboneater
Also, i think it would be great if we could team with allied houses. It would be great because then we would get fights with many players in it. A new page in the Hierarchy tab where all the diplomatic evolution of the house is consigned would help in it. There, the alliances, NATs and wars are shown. we would even have possibility to state the conditions of the alliance or NATs.[/quote]

@ Lordling- i guess i did missuhderstand what you were saying. sorry. i do agree with you then. also there should be more hanger bays able to support more ships.

-- consider the fighter class to be H3's and H4's; I recommended separate handling bays for H1's. I also hope to see something like an H4(B) Bomber hull someday. I didn't really consider H2's, but some accomodation could be made. Even the number of bays is open for debate, but I was trying to keep it realistic. These are, after all, only suggestions. As a matter of fact, after considering how inflated the fleets are already in Kosmor, the number of bays would probably need to be nearly doubled to give the Carrier any teeth at all.--

agree'd!
also, the carrier should have its complemenry of ships h1-h4. and maybe be able to have up to some h5's, but if you have h5's they take up more space so would a smaller complement of ships.
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chitown
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 08:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also if this would be implemented I think there should be a faster way to build H4's seeing that if the propese idea would go through There would be around 120H4's to be built inorder for the carrier to do any damage and most pros don't build or have H4's so they would have to build them up again.
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Carboneater
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 21:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, even if pros doesn't build H4s, non-pros does.
so if they are in the same house (or even allied if possible) the non-pro can easilly build those. and the pro too, but I think they'll like the alliance. for non-pros, it may be a away to get exp without always losing almost all of the fleet. the pros may use it as scouts, or as a supplement(might ba as simple as to get the biggest number of ships).

same for the H1s, but those will more be used to increase the number of ships, and as cannonfodder. anyway, H4s too will be used as that.

@Lordling, your H4b, it might be possible, but, I think, the easiest way to do it would be that when we equip a Hull (doesn't matter wich hull tech level), we choose wether we want torpedoes or lasers slots. (all must be symetrical, so you choose pair by pair.) so we can then get H4b (bombers) and H4l (light or laser...). then we could gain another part of strategy: bombers (slower(heavier?) but attack stronger and slower?) and light ones (faster (lighter) but attack weaker and faster?). this would be for every hull tech level.

edit---
Or would it be only possible for the Fighter-Class level, because the bigger ships are less mobile in fights?
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