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Combat System/2.0 Parameters
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Maelstroem
Commander


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 430
Location: Munich, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:56    Post subject: Combat System/2.0 Parameters Reply with quote

Dear Imperators,

as in kosmor.de, I want to open a brainstorming discussion thread.

I am currently working on a simultaenous fire combat system, which will employ an agent-based model.
Each ship can have its own combat behaviour.
I am searching for new parameters, which may be interesting to control.
(The current implementation of "attack weakest/attack strongest") is a little bit one-dimensional.

Code:

/***
  Combat/2.0 Features

  -  Formations
  -  Special Ship Attack orders (based on hull level)
  -  Ship grouping / small ships form one big hull using "adapter vessels".
  -  Simultaneous fire. Smart torpedos are fired and "search targets", they take time to fly, can be intercepted by fighters, can have area effect.
  -  Lasers reach their target instantenously. Higher distance to target, smaller and faster target = less hit probability.
  -  Area effect weapons
  -  Fighter Role H1-H4 (configurable as anti-torpedo fighters or weapon-killer fighters).
  -  Still looking for Medium Ship Roles (H5-H8) and Large Vessel Roles (H9-H12)
  -  Combat Leaders (the combat leader is the person with the most KK in the fleet).
  -  Combat Leaders can train skills with gathered experience points.

  Each combat leader can weigh combat strategies, using sliders:
      (These need to be modifable for all ships, and also for a group of ships, groups can be ship classes!).
      (Select group:    Graphical Display       Parameters
                      -----------------------
         H1           | . .  ...  .   ..    |   (( Weapon Area effect     minimize |-------------------| maximize ))
                      |                     |   Shield Mode setting     projectile |-------------------| energy
         H2           |                     |   Attack Mode           concentrated |      switch       | nearest enemy/best hit%
         H3           |                     |   Formation                   sparse |-------------------| tight
         H4           |                     |   Aggressiveness        full forward |-------------------| stay back
         H5           |                     |   (( Ram smaller aggressiveness high |-------------------| evasive manouvers ))
         H6           |                     |   (( Couple mode      when available |      switch       | never ))
         H7           |                     |
         H8           |                     |   Concentrated attack prio#1      H1 |-------------------| H12
         H9           |                     |   Concentrated attack prio#2      H1 |-------------------| H12
         H10          |                     |
                      |                     |   Retreat after % ship damage      0% | ----------- | 100%   (0%: shields gone)
         H11          |                     |   Retreat after % fleet loss      30% | ----------- | 100%
         H12          |                     |   (( Override subordinate tactics yes | ----------- | no ))
                      -----------------------

         Combat tactics must be savable!
      )
***/


Thanks for your input, please discuss constructively!

Bye,
Maelstroem
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Claudio
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 15:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Maelstroem!

That sounds great, indeed!

As far as i understand is that piece of "code" your brainstorming output?

I just read over it quite fast, but a few questions arose:

1) as you mention "area-effect weapons" you perhaps want to invent different kind of torpedoes? So in the construction phase, each one has to decide how many "normal" torpedoes and special ones he can build in a ship?

2) "area effect weapons" i just thought about them, that could include electronic weapons like "EMP", splash grenades, multiple warheads, smart warheads with lower explosive force, fire&forget warheads with higher explosive force, different types of mines --> u should use torpedoes for that purpose, laser rays with smart warheads Very Happy BUT perhaps - just as a crazy idea - if the torpedoes drop deaf&dumb mines (just explosive force, nothing else) you can blow them up using the lasers. The deaf&dumb mines the hostile ship can't identify because no specific radar signature is given and when the ship is in range, the lasers blow the mines up and cause damage Very Happy

3) combat leaders: is there just one leader for the whole fleet? Or one combat leader for every formation, squadron, or whatsoever?

4) roles: well, why not increase the combat abilities by having a coordinating ship? Why not replace some weapon slots with any device for facilitating co-operation? The effectiveness of the fleet should be higher if the single squadrons co-ordinate their attacks. Perhaps an H7 with a 4-slot-device can control 4 squadrons, a H9 with a 10-slot-device can himself co-ordinate 3 H7 etc....

5) retreat on damage: if the damage is lasting, i could imagine portable and stationable repair stations an emperor could build up even combined with any kind of marketshipment, so also ships from other imperators cen be repaired for credits.

So, just some thougts. most of them may be unintelligible, never be implemented or just dumb.... So, don't mind Very Happy

I'm looking forward to the enhancements! Just keep going, Maelstroem!
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Maelstroem
Commander


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 430
Location: Munich, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 18:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Claudio. Hope you are doing fine.

A few notes on my brainstorming:
- area effect means weapons impact on ships close to each other. something like a "fireball" spell in ad&d vs. "magic missle".

- combat leaders: with them, fleet tactics (shown above) are brought to the combat field. They can determine, whether they override subordninate combat leader fleet tactics or not. In effect, each imperator has exactly one "combat leader". Combat leaders can "train" skills (no list of skills available yet, but could be anything like "fleet speed enhancement", "fleet manouverability enhancement", "fleet hp enhancement", "fleet sp enhancement", "fleet torpedo hit% enhancement", "fleet laser hit% enhancement" and so on.

- roles: as in the famous (german) game "stein schere papier", every class of ships should have
a) an attack bonus on one of the other classes
b) a defense malus on one of the other classes.
I recommended the "fighter" (H1-H4) to be effective against "large vessels" (H9-H12): first, they can take out heavy-damage torps quite easily, second they can damage heavy weapon systems on heavy vessels. The last sentence is what I call their "Role".
The "medium class" vessel (H5-H8 ) should be effective against H1-H4 and vulnerable against H9-H12. I am still missing a logical way/description/features to implement that "role".
The "large class" vessels (H9-H12) should be effective against H5-H8 and be vulnerable against H1-H4 (as stated before). Here too, I am still missing a logical way/explanation/feature (such as "weapon attack/torpedo attack") how to implement that "Role".

- regarding "retreat" options: I would say, a combat leader can determine when each ship should try to flee. (If the hull has been damaged 50% for example, or when 30% of the fleets ships have been destroyed). A fleeing ship disengages combat, will fire at half fire rate, and has to reach a reasonable distance from other ships for it to have "fled successfully". Of course, smaller vessels have faster manouverability and acceleration and can flee much more easily than larger vessels.
Retreated ships automatically pull back to the next friendly system.
Currently, I would not make hull damage permanent, but would consider that weapon systems can be destroyed by the fighter role.

Bye,
Maelstroem
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Agnar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 07:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the "large" class ships might be able to protect groups of the "fighter" class, by projecting shields into those areas of space, as the fighters attack. (It also encourages close formation for fighters, while AOE encourages sparse formation)

This would increase the relationship between the two classes of ships, although it is more complicated than the "Scissor, Paper, Stone" model that maeli suggests. Just a thought...



Also, perhaps the medium class ships are powerful enough or manoeuvrable enough to destroy/avoid these projected shields, with more AOE options for clearing out groups of fighters?

I also suggest allowing non-pros to build the lowest class of "medium" class ships. This gives them at least some choices in building a fleet.
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Claudio
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 08:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstroem, yeh, I'm doing well. Lots of work to do, but I keep going, never let me bring down Smile

Do you want to invent new weapons? Or just modify existing ones?

So, what about those different kinds of torpedoes, shield projection, or co-ordination devices, 'could' that be part of the improvement or isn't it worth talked about? (Just if it's in your frame of brainstorming, isn't it?)

roles: why solve the problem via a bypass? reduce the upkeep and shield power of the H1, so that a single L10-shot can blow it up, then no one would use a H12 with a L12 (or whatsoever) because the cost-value-ratio is too low, 'cause e.g. 60% of the energy of the L12 is wasted and can be used firing at a larger vessel (such as H5-H8 ) and in this case the cost-value-ratio is acceptable. That's just a suggestion how one of the roles can be explained.

Perhaps for H5-H8-class: They can carry torpedoes with multiple warheads with a reduced max cp, so they can attack different (more than one Wink ) targets and have a good effectiveness against small vessels, BUT fighting a large vessel the multiple warheads are not that useful, because one of them has not the power to damage the vessel as a deaf&dumb torpedoe would do.

One caombat leader for a complete fleet? k. Then I qould expect that the ability to coordinate all ships sinks due to the rising total number of ships belonging to a fleet. (small fleet has better effectiveness than a big one) So, smaller fleets (normally NON-Pros and beginners) have better chances against the "old" players.

P.S.: What will the H12 be?

I hope to read soon your answer Smile

cya
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Maelstroem
Commander


Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 430
Location: Munich, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 16:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

H12 was just "invented" to fill that "heavy" vessel class with 4 ships.
Should we activate the H12, the non-Pros should get H5, you are right, Agnar.

As it is just brainstorming for now, "modified" weapon/shield systems for each role could be an interesting thing.

For example:

Fighters (H1-H4):
Lasers: Torpedo interception weapons, have fast enough tracking to destroy incoming torps.
Torpedos: Enemy electromagnetic weapon disabling. Can disable weapon systems, perferably of large ships.
Shields: As it is today: can withstand one very large laser/torpedo impact before breaking down ("Shield ships").

Fregates(H5-H8 ):
Torpedos: Smart cluster torpedos effective in tracking and hitting groups of small fighters (good idea, claudio). Cluster torps are "so many" that they cannot be easily destroyed by the fighter laser systems.
Lasers: ? (still open) (should have a bonus on fighters?)
Shields: ? (still open) (should be resistant to emp attacks?)

Warships(H9-H12):
Torpedos: Area of Effect Torpedos effective on fregate-class warships (why?)
Lasers: Laser Coupling to build "single powerful siege laser" which constructs a "standing" beam with lots of destructive power (especially against fregate class, whose shield systems can not compensate).
Shields: Special Bonus for "energetic attacks" , siege lasers are less effective and can be partially absorbed and flow back into ships energy systems.
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alphabravo
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Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 827
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 18:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstroem wrote:
Warships(H9-H12):
Torpedos: Area of Effect Torpedos effective on fregate-class warships (why?)


large cumbersome torpedo units are easily outmanoevered by smaller ships
frigates, however, have too high inertia to dodge a large torpedo whilst stationery but when moving (attacking?) could more easily dodge it

the smaller ships would be much harder to get a direct torpedo lock on

i'm thinking of the film "Independence Day"... the huge mother ships would be easy to hit with a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG nuke (oki, so in the film the shield holds... but nevermind)
but the fast small fighters are almost impossible to get a lock on Wink

at the same time, if there are enough fighters, and you could detonate a weapon in mid air (hit a torp with a laser?), maybe they would serve as flak weapons
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Ancient
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 20:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting but goes way over my head as a newbie still working out what the ships and weapons you get now do against different ships.
Great to see the update on Increasing the speed of your warplanet...
And look forwards to all the hard work on improving different things come to fruitation.
Ok maybe should not of written anything here but this is from a newbie perspective.
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 21:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

alphabravo wrote:

but the fast small fighters are almost impossible to get a lock on Wink


Which, of course, wasn't realistic at all. You would think that an advanced militant civilisation would have developed some serious AAK-AAK. Even the Millennium Falcon was no pushover for Imperial Tie Fighters.
Cool
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Gozer
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 22:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lordling wrote:
alphabravo wrote:

but the fast small fighters are almost impossible to get a lock on Wink


Which, of course, wasn't realistic at all. You would think that an advanced militant civilisation would have developed some serious AAK-AAK. Even the Millennium Falcon was no pushover for Imperial Tie Fighters.
Cool


As well as some serious counter-measures. Stealth technology, false image projection, etc. The SAM would have meant the end of the combat aircraft, if things like flares, chaff, and stealth hadn't been developed in response.
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e1567
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstroem wrote:


Warships(H9-H12):
Torpedos: Area of Effect Torpedos effective on fregate-class warships (why?)
Lasers: Laser Coupling to build "single powerful siege laser" which constructs a "standing" beam with lots of destructive power (especially against fregate class, whose shield systems can not compensate).
Shields: Special Bonus for "energetic attacks" , siege lasers are less effective and can be partially absorbed and flow back into ships energy systems.


I like all of these ideas but I think with this the "warships" will be out gunned. Lets simply think of upkeep vs viable strategy. If a pro went against a non pro and the non pro had all fighter ships the pro would either need to have frigate and simply not need the warships.

It would make sense if the Warships having the most expensive upkeep would have a dual role. Possible the h11 or h12 would be a carrier class and thier shields would help protect the fighters.

Maybe warships would also be effective against other warships and not just effective vs frigates. Think about it the slow torpedos would be ideal for hunting down other warships. I know based on your brainstorms your are only talking about bonus for ships but what about any negatives.

I also had a question for these commander effects how would one purchase them. Would each imperator gain experiance by a set formula such as combat, planet control, activity length(longer in the game more experiance).

In addition I know this thread is for a combat system mainly for ships but what about orbital defenses for planets. As in if a battle was fought on or near a planet the controller would get a bonus. Within in the defense system you could buy shields and weapon systems.

Thinking of the dynamics changes this system would increase the need for multiple ships and based on the sizes of certain houses currently will the upkeep of ships be decreased or the tax formula changed to make larger players more effective. The only reason I ask is because with the change of speed and the jump drives for none leaders it had seemed that it was being attempted to make the individual more effective. But with the mentioned changes, brain storm, it seems that a large house fleet will again be the most dominate force and would decrease the strength of the individual. In addition with the changes pros would need to have frigates and warships decreasing the total number of ships a pro could have. But the changes you propose could possibly leveling out the playing field to what it is now but just interesting.

While I am on the subject of dynamic changes of the tax system, any change of the taxes would probably benifit the powerful pro players more than the non pro but what about the small pro players. Well one way is to wo what about the smaller players, independent and dependent, would gain access to cloak or stealth technology. Of course this is for the smaller non pros based on population and combat power. Another idea is allowing smaller players the chance to form a federation, a new type of house. A reason to form a federation are that all involved have full access to independent jump drives but they can trade planets supplies and cash between each other, but not necessarily share ships among one another. Of course entry of a federation would still be like the feudal system we have currently the strongest would be the head and the weaker below him. But a federation has a limit of total strength based on population and combat power after that certain number is reached or exceded the federation would be transformed into a house. The fluff behind this is obvious a small group of smugglers, pirates, dare i say freedom fighters need more power and choices to fight against the larger players/houses.

To conclude I know I have said alot and seemingly gone off topic but I am a fan of complexity. We can not change one thing and hope other things cannot change. With the change of the war planet speed the individual within a house becomes more important and larger houses become more powerful. With the potential changes Maelstroem is proposing a massive house fleet become even more powerful. With my propistion a revamp of the tax system makes it possible for multiple large fleet to be constructed and maintained. With cloaks and federations the smaller players can still be dangerous and effective. These are just my thoughts sorry for the seemingly randomness of them that is why I wrote the conclusion to try to sum up Laughing .
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Lordling
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 20:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you are going to have multiple classes of ships, then they need to have roles to justify their existence, else, we could have one class called "warship" that can do everything. Historically, the Frigate has always been the most flexible vessel in any fleet, fulfilling more roles than any other 2 or 3 ship classes combined. A capital ship is usually limited to: Flagship (Command & Control), Force Projection, Capital Ship Engagement, and Shore (Planetary) Bombardment. The key is to get value out of the smaller hulls, so that not only is the "upkeep vs. firepower" issue analysed, but "cost to benefit" as well. It becomes a different ballgame if, no, a frigate doesn't have a favorable ratio for the upkeep to firepower, but, oh man, look how they mow down those fighters, bombers and interceptors. In addition, it just plain doesn't make any sense to have a "fleet" of 200 (or more) H4's. I mean, using this mentality/strategy, each of the major navies of the world would consist of 200 PT boats. It also makes little sense to have a fleet of 50 battleships (Goliaths), as they would be eaten alive by submarines and/or air assaults. Even the US Navy's new LCS (Littoral Combat Ship) design, is mission flexible, with component modules that can be easily swapped out to configure the ship for specific requirements & roles. This design will replace the Frigate, Destroyer, and Cruiser, all with one single multi-configurable hull.
Right now, in Kosmor, with the exception of the 'small hulls' mod, we have only a contest of CP. For all intents & purposes, you might as well have one humongous ship with 200k CP, 2400 Lx, 1800 Tx, and 4500 shield points. Kosmor is a game, though, and the mechanics & rules have been balanced as they are, with no real weakness/strength per class of vessel. This is what Maelstroem is trying to improve, and I applaud the willingness & effort.
Smile
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Carboneater
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 13:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I suggest is also that larger ships may haul (hide?) some smaller ships inside. Like the Warships may haul one or two frigates and/or some (5 to 10) fighters and the frigate may haul one or two fighters. In combat, they may have the order of launching those after a special event (SP at 0% (?)). Or these ships hauled may even be some "empty shells" so that when "something" happens (once again, shields out of order?), the crew of the ship may leave the ship and continue fighting in the smaller ships (and install auto-destruction on the abandonned ship, that will act as an area weapon?). The upkeep of the empty shells may be something like 1/5 of the regular upkeep, only to keep the ship able to fly.

Also, another weapon that all ships may have would be some "fake torpedoes": torpedoes without any explosive charge, only filled with fuel. So, when youi launch it the flare would be gigantic. Inside the flare, there would be a special place, where it would be possible to hide up to 3 regular torpedoes. These torpedoes may also be used without any torpedoes hidden, only to move away some fighters and open the area for a great fire on other ships...

And for the idea of the fight coordinator, it would be great to have some lower fight coordinators, so the fleets would be separated in something like squadrons. Some may be bombers (torpedoes launchers), torpedoes interceptors, blasters (laser shooters, that may stay a bit farther from the fight...), ...
Then, you can build up your squadrons, choose all their effectives, (their home base (a SS with a shipyard who produces ships tuned for their missions... these may also begin build back the ships losts in fight...)), build their strategy, ...
The fight coordinator might be the WP, and the squadron leaders might be some kind of "sub-WP", able to travel alone in space (for a max of 5 days...after, it must land on a planet to recharge), posseses jumpdrive of 75 or 100 LYs, able to land on the WP, able to fight alone with its squadron, able to coordinate actions with allied forces (you draw the diagram of the deployment at the beginning of the fight, after, they follow their orders (strategy...)), you can lend and borrow units with your allies...
Well, these may be something like a H13, with big shields, big drives (high end, low torque(harder to flee)), weak lasers and weak torpedoes (or the torpedoes slots may be some extra ships (parts?) storage area).

Also, I like the idea of weapons on planets and WP.
The weapons on the planets might be lasers only (torpedoes would take an eternity to reach target...Even the warships would have time to intercept those...). The shields would be a new kind of shields: long-range shields: the shields on the planet might be deployed up to a distance of 50LY from it's source. These shields' energy comes from the heat of the SS's core. So, when you deploy your shield, you must watch the heat of the core that it doesn't drop too low, of the shield's going to disappear. Also, the fact of the advanced shields will be another adavntage of democraty...
Or it would be a reason to develop a small drive-by of 5 LY, so you can cross the shields, but watch out that they doesn't close up on the planet!
Also, the WP and sub-WP might have another use in fights: shield providers. It's your option to choose what will be shielded.

Also, I think something like hangars would be useful:
Torpedoes that are currently shot looks like an infinite amo. Lasers too.
It would be interesting to build every torpedo shot (built by package of 10?). Lasers would need new power supply (100 shot each?). There would be possibility to hold these on WPs and sub-WPs. Then, ships would need to recharge. Also, spare parts of ships might be something great to carry on too: to replace destroyed parts. And also think of fuel...
On the WPs and sub-WPs, there would be a fortune shipyard, to install the spare parts. It's impossible to build ships on there. Only change parts and hope the job's have been done well. In the regular shipyards (planets' ones), there would be a new option: check-up. This option allows the shipyard's crew to verify the job done in the middle of nowhere. And if i haven't been done well, they may fix it (for a fee...) the right way.


also, to keep on the launch of Maelstroem:
Maelstroem wrote:
Fregates(H5-H8 ):
Torpedos: Smart cluster torpedos effective in tracking and hitting groups of small fighters (good idea, claudio). Cluster torps are "so many" that they cannot be easily destroyed by the fighter laser systems.
Lasers: ? (still open) (should have a bonus on fighters?)
Shields: ? (still open) (should be resistant to emp attacks?)


Lasers: random repettitive shootings. shots in the area of a group of fighters. hits somethimes to often... fighters pilots doesn't know where the next shot will be, so they try to reach the laser (and destroy it...) while avoiding possible laser shots. So they do a slalom between lasers and the possible ones. Sometimes, some pilots will freak out and sometimes will run away, as deserters.
Shields: didn't understood what's emp, but : these may be less effective because the ships are always moving, so it's unable to concentrate power on areas where the attack comes from. So it might often be bypassed.

Maelstroem wrote:
Warships(H9-H12):
Torpedos: Area of Effect Torpedos effective on fregate-class warships (why?)
Lasers: Laser Coupling to build "single powerful siege laser" which constructs a "standing" beam with lots of destructive power (especially against fregate class, whose shield systems can not compensate).
Shields: Special Bonus for "energetic attacks" , siege lasers are less effective and can be partially absorbed and flow back into ships energy systems.


torpedoes: effective on frigates because they have a little shield emitter (something like S1) inside their explosive charge. This shield allows them to trespass the frigates' shields. At detonation, the energy of the shield is transferred to the explosive charge, giving a greater explosion.


I know with all these upgrades, there is job for the next 15 years in developpement, but I know it's not everything that will be kept from idea to upgrade. But I think e1567 said he liked things complicated. I hope he's going to get something complicated enough.
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Rupsie
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 15:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know if this idea is ever mentioned.

isn't fun that every H5+ got a escape pod so the crew can get safed after a battle. they will retreat to the nearest planet and you can install them on a other ship.

you will have just 50% from the exp from the crew and morale drops.
most crew members won't make it to the escape pods and some get shot down.

some ships get exp before they get shot down so it will give a big boost to the exp system form kosmor it will aswell give more strategy options. a fleet with vetarens is still a match against a bigger fleet with just rookies.

Rupsie
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Carboneater
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 09:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

this idea had just been mentionned by me.

but what I thought to is that the H5+would have possibilities to haul ships of a smaller class (H4-) to use as escape pod. so, when the ship is near to be destroyed (or the order is given), the crew escape in these ships to continue fighting.

yours is different, but I like also the idea of the escape pod. So, when you lose your ship, it takes a while before the reinforcements comes, if they manage to come...
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